I am not that curious about how to get faster as a trail runner, but I am curious about how fast people’s brains work. My friend Mike Foote and I have a lot in common (we’re dads of toddlers, we both like early Metallica albums, we both live in Missoula, we both grew up in small towns in the Midwest, etc.) but running velocity is not one of them (hes on the podium when he races; I am proud to finish without injuring myself). So when we decided to travel to South Africa together in November, I thought it might be a good chance to pick his brain a little bit. He came over and sat down for an interview before we left, and then I kept asking him questions throughout our trip. Which was fun for me, and tolerable for Mike, who was a good sport about the whole thing.

　　Here’s the video of our very extended interview—I hope you get a kick out of it (and maybe some useful insight):

　　Heres the full, lightly-edited transcript if youd rather read it:

　　Brendan: This is my friend Mike. Hes been a professional trail and ultra runner for 11 years. Hes sponsored by a really big outdoor apparel company. During his career, hes podiumed at a bunch of the worlds top mountain ultra marathons. A while back he invited me to go to South Africa with him for the Ultra Trail Cape Town. I thought itd be fun to ask him some questions since hes a world class athlete and Im not a world class athlete. OK. Are you comfortable?

　　Mike: I am.

　　Brendan: OK. So do you run first thing in the morning to get it out of the way or because its your favorite thing to do every day?

　　Mike: Yes, both. I do it because thats when I have energy and because Im looking forward to doing it and I enjoy it most in the morning.

　　Brendan: Do you drink coffee first?

　　Mike: 100 percent of the time.

　　Brendan: Have you ever entered a race and said, I think I might just take it easy for this one? Not like go hard.

　　Mike: Not really.

　　Brendan: Thats good. In your experience and opinion, is it more fun to try hard?

　　Mike: I dont know if trying hard is the only thing that matters. I think committing to something can bring more purpose to it. Sometimes thats trying hard, sometimes thats just, you know, embracing the moment, whatever that looks like. For a race, I think trying hard definitely puts you in the moment a lot more.

　　Brendan: Are you ever out there during a race and you just lose track of stuff and youre like thinking about some other things and youre like, Oh, I should be running faster?

　　Mike: Yeah, I have. I mean, if youre running a 100-miler and its all day or its the middle of the night, you tend to get a little loopy and your mind starts to drift. That can definitely happen.

　　Brendan: Whats the best advice anybody has ever given you about running a very long distance?

　　Mike: It was actually advice for climbing, but it was a climbing guide out in the Tetons and he said, Perfection is in the process. To me it was like a lightning bolt of like, Oh, its less about, you know, the outcome and more about the journey, which is cliche and weve all heard it, but I just felt like perfection is in the process is such a succinct way of putting it. I really enjoyed it. I try to approach my running that way. I break down an ultra marathon into moments and I try and just keep on top of those moments, versus the whole thing. Thats perfection in the process. If its 2:00 AM and Im 70 miles into a 100-mile race and its raining really hard and all I really want is to be done, instead of just thinking about the finish line, Im gonna think about all the things I can do in that moment to stay warm, stay fed, stay moving forward as fast as I can. Ill think about efficiencies in the moment and focus on that very acutely versus whats at the end. That way your brain is staying present and you are working through it versus just trying to be done with it.

　　Brendan: Have you ever vomited from exertion?

　　Mike: I have never vomited from exertion.

　　Brendan: What about the other end?

　　Mike: Yes.

　　Brendan: Whats the longest youve ever spent in a porta-potty during a race? Like just guess.

　　Mike: No more than a minute.

　　Brendan: Whoa.

　　Mike: Yeah. OK.

　　Mike: Yeah, Im a lucky guy.

　　Brendan: Do you enjoy pain?

　　Mike: No. Do I accept pain? Yes.

　　Brendan: Do you experience a lot of pain in your daily life?

　　Mike: Its all relative, but yeah, Im uncomfortable almost every day at some point. But the pain, its like a one out of 10, you know?

　　Brendan: How do you deal with pain during a race?

　　Mike: I dont try to ignore it. I accept it for what it is, I acknowledge that theres a very big difference between discomfort and pain and being injured and unsafe. So as long as Im just really uncomfortable and in pain from running really hard or just having a really big day, thats OK, and then as soon as it feels like Im unsafe or injured, then I pay attention to it. Sometimes when things are just really, really hard, Im not thinking about the pain, Im just thinking about how hard it is and I remind myself, this is what you came for, this is the moment that you were working towards.

　　Brendan: The pain.

　　Mike: Sure, you can call it the pain. I call it the challenge and discomfort. But yeah, its painful.

　　Brendan: Why do you run a 100 miles or 100 kilometers or 31 miles instead of 26 or 13?

　　Mike: Those are the distances that mean I can go a little bit slower and be out a little bit longer, and thats the type of stuff I enjoy. And when I do adventures, theyre similar to that, all-day, relatively slow adventures. Running 100 miles or 100 kilometers in the mountains is pretty slow. Its a lot of power hiking up and running down and thats the gear I enjoy the most.

　　Brendan: Do you eat aid station food? Youre a pro athlete, you have nutrition dialed. Do you ever get up to an aid station and youre like, Oh my god, they got Double Stuf Oreos and you just house like four of em and then keep running?

　　Mike: Yes.

　　Brendan: You do?

　　Mike: Oh yeah.

　　Brendan: OK.

　　Mike: Yeah, you gotta enjoy the aid station fare.

　　Brendan: I dont know, sometimes I picture people being like, oh, I cant mess with my delicately balanced nutrition. Like if Im gonna win this thing or whatever. I kind of assume theyre not like, ooh, you got quesadillas.

　　Mike: I mean, to be honest, if Im running 55 kilometers, Ill probably just eat the calories Im carrying because its gonna go pretty fast. Hopefully five or six hours. But if its a 100-miler, Ill peruse, Ill have a full meal, Ill ask what theyve got, sometimes theyll cook for you if youve got time.

　　Brendan: What would make you stop and grab food from an aid station in this upcoming race? What would be so good you would have to? Youd be like, Nah, yeah, Im hitting this. Like a bear claw.

　　Mike: I think its gonna be hot, so probably like watermelon or an orange or something, like some sort of like hydrating fruit. I probably wont eat a bear claw.

　　Brendan: Well, what if they had it like cut up into smaller pieces?

　　Mike: OK, yeah, thats fair. Still no.

　　Brendan: What is the longest conversation youve ever had with someone at an aid station during an ultramarathon youre competing in?

　　Mike: Hmm. I go into every aid station and Im convinced that the nicer I am, the better things are gonna go and thats what volunteers deserve. So I think Im really nice, but Im not very curious.

　　Brendan: When do you go fast?

　　Mike: What do you mean?

　　Brendan: When do you think like, OK, now Im gonna go fast the whole time.

　　Mike: You know, I dont, not the whole time. My worst races are the ones where I get overconfident. Im like, Im gonna go out hard today. That has rarely worked out for me, especially in longer distances. It just depends—on the terrain, on the distance. But if Im feeling good, Ill just slowly press on the gas pedal throughout the day without any major big shifts. Im not the kind of person who just sits and sits and then is gonna sprint it in. Id like to have smooth energy throughout. But if Im feeling good and I can close down the race hard, then Ill do that. But I dont really have like a, the last 20 percent or anything like that. Do you need more prescriptive?

　　Brendan: No.

　　Mike: Do need me to lie?

　　Brendan: Nope. No. Just be honest. Do you start at the front of the pack or a couple rows back or likemiddle of the pack.

　　Mike: I start at the back of the front of the pack.

　　Brendan: Back of the front of the pack.

　　Mike: Thats my spot.

　　Brendan: So like 300 people in the race, how many people are in front of you at the start?

　　Mike: Twenty to thirty.

　　Brendan: Is that because youre a polite Midwesterner or youre like legit this is where I feel the most comfortable?

　　Mike: Probably a little bit of both. Yeah, I dont wanna get in peoples way. I just really, really dont like being in peoples way. Id much rather theyre in my way. And that feels good when you pass them later if that happens.

　　Brendan: What is advice you would give someone about running an ultramarathon but you would never apply to your own race?

　　Mike: I mean, the only thing that comes to mind is I always tell people that nobody in the history of running 100-milers has ever said I went out too slow. But I think its possible. I think people probably have said it. So like sometimes Im like, I wouldnt want to test that theory. Its good to go out conservative, but I would not want to end a race and be like, Oh man, I waited way, way, way too long.

　　Brendan: During a race, do you ever ask yourself why youre doing it? Like why dont you just golf?

　　Mike: I mean, only all the time. The whole time, like why am I doing this? I dont know. I think its a good thing, I think its a good question. Like, I mean, I think its in vogue to ask, you know, to have a why when youre doing something like this and I think that your reasons for running shift, like its important to have like a good purpose behind it. My answer at the beginning of my career, I probably told myself I was following my curiosity, but I really was competitive and I wanted to prove myself in something cause Id never really had much success athletically. When I started to in running, I was like, Oh, this feels good.

　　Brendan: OK, and then what about now? When you get to that point in next weeks race, whats your why of doing it? Like this is my job?

　　Mike: My why now?

　　Brendan: Like I clocked in?

　　Mike: I gotta collect my paycheck? My why now is that I truly do love it. And for me, were going to South Africa, I love experiencing new places, I like experiencing new communities and cultures. I also have one child and another on the way and I want to be able to show my kids that they can do hard things, they can do extraordinary things and that its OK to swing big. And so when Im out there now I think about that.

　　Brendan: Whats worse, overtraining or undertraining?

　　Mike: Overtraining.

　　Brendan: Are you undertrained right now?

　　Mike: Im hoping Im right on the edge. Yesterday I felt overtrained, but the week before I felt undertrained, so.

　　Brendan: How many miles have you run this year? Approximate.

　　Mike: I dont know, I dont pay attention.

　　Brendan: How many miles do you run a week?

　　Mike: I mean, its a lot less than it used to be. Id say when Im actually training, 60 to 80.

　　Brendan: How many miles did you run per week when you were like top of your game?

　　Mike: Like 100 to 130.

　　Brendan: Do you ever stick around and watch the last place person cross the finish line?

　　Mike: I do, yeah, its the best.

　　Brendan: Why is it the best?

　　Mike: Its really cool to see somebody chasing cutoffs like that. And often youre also surrounded by other people that may have finished sooner, but also came out and hobbled to a finish line to watch that last finisher, and theres this collective effervescence that happens and this communal feel that kind of transcends the event. Its this celebration, its like the exclamation point on the end of a really cool experience. And its always emotional, people are chasing this thing and its incredibly hard. Yeah, its pretty special.

　　Brendan: Do you think the cheers are louder for the first place finisher or the last place finisher at most ultramarathons?

　　Mike: Definitely louder for the last place. Perhaps more people for the first place, but its a more moderate decibel. The last place person, youre like losing your mind for em because they may or may not get this arbitrary time and therefore will have finished or not finished and its very exciting.

　　Brendan: How many toenails do you have right now?

　　Mike: Nine.

　　Brendan: Whats the lowest number of toenails youve had in your career?

　　Mike: I mean, I actually take pride in not having awful feet. I dont know, maybe five. But usually I dont lose em, so.

　　Brendan: What do you attribute that to?

　　Mike: Wearing shoes that fit. This is a pet peeve about ultrarunning. I think that were a little too proud of our awful toenails. I think that people just need better footwear.

　　Brendan: What do you eat during a race?

　　Mike: How long is the race?

　　Brendan: Lets say 50 miles maximum. What do you eat during that?

　　Mike: 50 miles maximum, I eat sugar. I eat a lot of chews, just like whatever, like chewy gummy stuff I can eat and I probably eat a few 100 calories an hour.

　　Brendan: Why not gels?

　　Mike: Im just kinda over em. I ate only gels for like a decade.

　　Brendan: Just running, not just like you ate em all the time? For 10 years. How many calories do you think you eat per hour?

　　Mike: 300 on average.

　　Brendan: Do you drink calories or do you just drink straight water?

　　Mike: Im not dogmatic about it, but I usually drink mostly water.

　　Brendan: What have we not touched on that you had thought about?

　　Mike: I used to like get on the start line and just like size people up and be like, Oh, that person looks fit, that person looks fast, like, hmm. And now I just imagine that everybody at one point was a toddler because I have a toddler. And Im just imagining them being two years old, toddling around, being tyrants to their parents. And Im like, this is ridiculous. Its just incredible that we got here. I sincerely did that this year at a race and it was such a pressure release for me.

　　Brendan: Do you practice positive self-talk during races, in your head, or literally talk to yourself?

　　Mike: I do, and its benign stuff like you got this, stay strong, stay in the moment. And sometimes some expletives if Im really digging deep. I dont know if those are positive or not. Actually maybe thats the one thing that I would tell somebody else to do is positive self-talk whereas sometimes I can fuel myself with some strong language and it seems to help in the moment.

　　Brendan: But its not negative strong language like, Youre a piece of shit, Mike?

　　Mike: Well, its like, dont be a piece of shit. So its like right on the edge. I try and stay action-oriented and solutions-oriented, thats my positive self-talk. Im like, OK, what can I do now to make sure that Im feeling good ten minutes from now? How much liquid do I need? How much food do I need? That solutions-oriented curiosity and mindset is my positive self-talk.

　　Brendan: Do you have a mantra? Like would you say theres things that you or some mantras that you repeat?

　　Mike: When my mind is getting super distracted, sometimes Ill just repeat the phrase, Now, here, this.

　　Brendan: Have you ever shut off your headlamp when youre way behind somebody whos ahead of you in a race and then passed them and then turned it on?

　　Mike: Oh yeah. Ive done headlamp warfare for sure. Either Ill keep it off as long as possible so somebody doesnt know Im near or I will turn it off as Im approaching somebody so they dont get motivated to run any faster away from me.

　　Brendan: Do you ever say anything nasty to them as you pass by or like try to, like [imitates ch-ch-ch-ah-ah-ah sound from Friday the 13th]

　　Mike: No. I do not do that. Im overly nice and just act like Im not in any sort of pain or discomfort at that moment. Im just overly jolly, and its just like psychological warfare.

　　Brendan: Do you like getting up early?

　　Mike: Yeah, I do

　　Brendan: How much coffee do you drink per day??

　　Mike: A cup.

　　Brendan: One cup?

　　Mike: Mmm hmm.

　　Brendan: What your policy on moving walkways?

　　Mike: I dont take them.

　　Brendan: You want a donut?

　　Mike: No.

　　Brendan: Do you listen to music or anything when you run?

　　Mike: Yeah. Mostly podcasts.

　　Brendan: Are you gonna listen to podcasts during your race?

　　Mike: I dont listen to anything when I race.

　　Brendan: Do you stretch?

　　Mike: I do the couch stretch. Its to keep my knees happy. So thats only recent, but normally not really.

　　Brendan: Can you sleep on planes?

　　Mike: Just a little bit.

　　Brendan: Do you enjoy being famous in a very niche environment? Like you dont get recognized walking down the street in New York, but at trail running things you get recognized? Do you enjoy that?

　　Mike: Oh yeah. Thats the only reason Im still here.

　　Brendan: Have you ever gotten lost during a race?

　　Mike: All the time, yeah.

　　Brendan: Really?

　　Mike: Oh man, yeah, Ive got a bad record.

　　Brendan: Have you tried going slower? Because Ive never gotten lost.

　　Mike: You havent?

　　Brendan: I dont think so.

　　Mike: Really?

　　Brendan: I dont even think Ive had to turn around.

　　Mike: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Like sometimes Ill get there before the volunteer and so therell be like flags going in two directions and theyre the same color but ones for a 25K and ones for the 50K.

　　Brendan: Not a problem a lot of us have. I can see you having it though. So you have a cold?

　　Mike: Yeah.

　　Brendan: And youre gonna race anyway. You think Im gonna get your cold before my race?

　　Mike: Probably the morning of. Right when you wake up youll feel it

　　Brendan: Do you do speed work?

　　Mike: I do intensity. So most of my like hard efforts are up the hill so its not that fast actually. But Im doing it at a high effort. So Ill just do five by three minutes up a steep hill to build strength and aerobic capacity. And then, you know, Ill switch that up, sometimes Ill just do a hard 30-minute effort up a hill. So its just rare that Im doing speed, something really fast and flat. For the goals I have, I dont really need a whole lot of flat speed work.

　　Brendan: Can I offer you an ass-wipe?

　　Mike: Yeah, sure, thanks.

　　Brendan: Have you ever had a nickname that stuck? When do you use poles in a race?

　　Mike: When its too steep to run.

　　Brendan: Have you ever worn the race T-shirt in the race?

　　Mike: Its like wearing like a band T-shirt when youre going to their concert, I just cant do it.

　　Brendan: So no.

　　Mike: No.

　　Brendan: Whats your goal for today?

　　Mike: Whats my goal?

　　Brendan: Yeah.

　　Mike: Stay hydrated. Run fast. Make a friend.

　　Brendan: Do you get nervous?

　　Mike: Yeah.

　　Brendan: What about constipated?

　　Mike: No.

　　Brendan: What do you get nervous about?

　　Mike: The pain that will happen, the fear of expectations versus reality sometimes. Im actually usually the most nervous like two days before and then by the time I get to the start line, Im not very nervous.

　　Brendan: Whats your ratio of liquid calories to solid calories?

　　Mike: Probably 75 percent solid calories, 25 percent liquid.

　　Brendan: Do you have any advice for yourself before you start this race?

　　Mike: I think because I just dont know the race course that well, it would probably be good for me to be judicious in the first hour so that I set myself up for the second half.

　　Brendan: And then if youre feeling good, youll push it a little bit?

　　Mike: Yeah. Vision quest has begun.

　　Brendan: How you feeling?

　　Mike: Im not good at all. I just dont have any energy. I mean, it might come back and Im trying, but.

　　Brendan: How far am I behind the leader?

　　Mike: Youre really far behind the leaders. Youre like five hours, six hours.

　　Brendan: OK.

　　Brendan: Mike, what do you when a race takes longer than you thought it would?

　　Mike: Well, you just, you work with what you got and you keep taking care of yourself. The strategy doesnt really change, you just kind of acknowledge that maybe its not going as fast as you want. Thats OK, you still have the same goals: getting to the finish as fast as you can and taking care of yourself along the way.

　　Brendan: You ever get a rock in your shoe during a race?

　　Mike: Yeah.

　　Brendan: What do you do?

　　Mike: Well, if its not that big and its not slowing me down, I just leave it in there. But if its bothering me, Ill take my shoe off and get the rock out.

　　Brendan: What about like an invisible poky plant piece?

　　Mike: I have a high tolerance to discomfort in my feet and usually Im way too lazy to do anything about it.

　　Brendan: Have you ever read this book?

　　Mike: Yes.

　　Brendan: Have you ever bonked during a race?

　　Mike: Many times.

　　Brendan: What happens?

　　Mike: Well, sometimes Im smart and eat a lot of food and take care of myself and turn things around, and sometimes I dont or I dont finish.

　　Brendan: Do you double knot your running shoes?

　　Mike: Depends on how long the shoelace is, if theyre longer, Ill triple knot, but I at least double knot them.

　　Brendan: You think youll be able to get a selfie with a lion?

　　Mike: Its possible.

　　Brendan: How long do you usually wait after a race to start running again?

　　Mike: You know, I like to listen to my body. It could be a few days, could be a few weeks.

　　Brendan: Was it worth it?