I’ve read more books on climate action than I can count. So I don’t say this lightly: I’m obsessed with the one I just finished, What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures by Ayana Elizabeth Johnson.

　　In it, Johnson, a marine biologist and co-founder of the nonprofit think-tank Urban Ocean Lab, conducts interviews with 20 experts in everything from finance to farming to film and asks them to imagine what a replenished and healthy world might look like if we use the collective wisdom we already have to combat climate change.

　　I read this book in midNovember, right after the 2024 presidential election, and I was pretty gripped with climate anxiety.

　　This is not another preachy enviro-book. It’s not pushing hope for hope’s sake down our throats. Instead, it spotlights innovative solutions that are already working—like an increased reliance on renewable energy, greening up transportation and buildings, regenerative agriculture, and reducing food waste—and urges us to consider the possibilities when these things scale. Interspersed throughout the interviews are lists of jaw dropping facts, poems, and essays. And plenty of calls to action.

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　　There was one paragraph that really hit me. In her interview with Paola Antonelli, senior curator for architecture and design at New York’s Museum of Modern Art, Johnson asks her a question that recurs throughout the book: “How can we be part of the solutions we need? Is there a call to action?”

　　“The call to action is really to be better humans,” Antonelli says. “I don’t know how else to put it. Be better humans by understanding that we live for others. Otherwise we don’t have much reason to live. And when I say ‘others,’ I mean also the rest of the environment, all creatures and things. The answer is love.”

　　I decided to reach out to Johnson for a climate pep talk. The book hit shelves in September 2024, and weve had a presidential election—and a lot of global unrest—since then. I was curious how Johnson felt now, and whether her attitude or ideas had shifted with the socioeconomic and political tides. Plus, I just really didnt want the book to end. Johnson’s casual, conversational style of writing left me feeling like we were already friends and hoped I could glean even more insight from one of the most exciting minds in the climate movement.

　　OUTSIDE: Talk me off the ledge: the book’s premise ponders what the world would look like if we get climate action right. But can we actually get it right? In the time that we have? How? 

　　JOHNSON: I have a lot of angsty journalists on my calendar right now and Im just like, at what point did I become everyones climate shrink? How did I become the pep talker? It’s sort of funny because I am decisively not an optimist. Im well aware that this climate scenario could very easily go even further off the rails. But it has literally never occurred to me that we should give up because thats absurd, right? You dont give up on life on earth.

　　And so it just always comes back to the question of what can we do to make it better? Because not trying is not an option. I was raised by two people who were in various small ways active in the movement for civil rights. At no point did people in that movement say, “This is too hard. Let’s just give up and be unequal forever.”

　　Sometimes I think there are a lot of people out there who are just quitters when it comes to climate change. They think the odds are too long and they’ll be gone anyway. But thats a very weak and sad response.

　　Part of the problem is that weve been told that we have to stop or solve climate change. And those verbs are clearly delusional because we cant solve it and we cant stop it. But we can make things much better than they otherwise would have been if we didn’t try.

　　People just need to roll up their sleeves and get their heads in the game. I dont really know what to say about the anxiety that most people are feeling except to say this: you will feel a hell of a lot better if youre doing something about it.

　　Most of the people reading this interview care and want to take action. But unfortunately there are so many who don’t, who just go about their lives, and intentionally or unintentionally don’t think about what the world will look like in 50 years. What would you say to them? Wake up! As the saying goes, if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.

　　You use a Venn diagram exercise to help people find their niche in the climate movement. Can you explain how it works? To ensure a livable future on this planet, we need to move beyond the platitudes of reduce, reuse, recycle. There is no one person or one entity that can fix this problem. We need to create a culture where everyone has a role to play. Are we gonna put our heads in the sand or pitch in?

　　The Climate Action Venn Diagram is a tool that helps everyone find their unique role by finding the intersection of three questions. 1) What brings you joy? 2) What are you good at? 3) What work needs doing?

　　The book is the result of my Venn diagram.

　　The Biden-Harris administration has arguably taken more climate action than any in history. A lot of environmentalists are bummed—even scared—about the results of the recent presidential election. You wrote the book before it happened. How did the election impact you personally and how will it impact your work and message moving forward? The last Trump administration rolled back well over 100 environmental protections and we dont want that to happen again. In this current environment, I think we may need to do some reframing. We may get more traction if we talk less about “climate change” but keep pushing on the solutions. For example, there may be some openings in just the basics like the government protecting clean air and clean water, and we can reframe a lot of climate stuff in those terms because all Americans care about that. 

　　When you feel like you’re banging your head against the wall, stop doing what youre doing and find a different way. Because if yelling climate facts at people was enough, we would have solved this already, right?

　　I also think it will be really hard for the Trump administration to turn its back on the economic benefits we’ve seen from the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA). Especially when so many red states are benefitting the most. Texas and Iowa lead the nation on wind energy. Not because they’re a bunch of hippies but because the finances just make sense. As of 2022, the clean energy sector employs more than 3.3 million people, over three times more than fossil fuels.

　　My reaction to this election was OK, what does this mean for me and my work? My answer, after reevaluating all my projects: I just need to double down. That includes focusing on what city governments can do to adapt to climate change, via my think tank Urban Ocean Lab, and supporting the next generation of climate leaders through teaching at Bowdoin college, and consulting with corporations that are trying to get it right since the federal government isn’t adequately regulating their climate impacts.

　　But overall, the role that I see for myself in climate work is to welcome more people into it. We need way more people working on climate solutions. So how can I help people get creative and find their own personal approach?

　　Was your book tour, which really wasn’t a book tour in the traditional sense, part of that approach? Yes, the Climate Variety Show, which we put on in Brooklyn, Los Angeles, and Portland, Maine, was born out of my own complete lack of desire to read my book aloud in bookstores across the country. What could be more boring? People are already bored of climate change, so how do I entice people in? I feel like there are things we havent tried yet as far as communications and influencing our friends and family.

　　So the Climate Variety Show was all about taking climate seriously without taking ourselves seriously. It was basically like a high school talent show—comedy, dancing, hula-hooping, poetry, games, music, puppets, and magic all mashed up into an evening of delightful chaos.

　　And everyone there filled out their Climate Action Venn Diagram in real time. If you want to get a sense of what it was like, you can hear audio clips in my podcast episode and see a gallery of images in my Substack newsletter.

　　In What If We Get It Right?, you end each chapter by asking your interviewee the top three things they wish everyone knew about their particular area of expertise. So I’d like to ask you: What are the top three things you want everyone to know about your book?

　　It’s quite a fun, spirited read. I’ve been told the vibe of the book is like eavesdropping at a dinner party with me and 20 dear friends and colleagues, because the book includes interviews with these brilliant folks who are showing the way forward to their “visions of climate futures,” as the subtitle puts it. And if you listen to the audiobook, you get to actually hear these conversations. There’s magnificent art and poetry mixed in. I envisioned this book as something that people would read and discuss together, so, for book clubs and teachers, I made a reading guide. Oh! And as a bonus, the very last page has my Anti-Apocalypse Mixtape, which I spent an inordinate amount of time putting together and includes anthems for victory, love songs to Earth, tunes for tenacity, and sexy implementation vibes.

　　Kristin Hostetter is Outside’s sustainability columnist. This column is the result of a similar Venn diagram exercise she did several years ago when she became a founding member of the Outdoorist Oath. Follow her journey to live more sustainably by signing up for her twice-monthly newsletter.